a Christian

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  96

  Babylonian Business Records

  by VM44 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

  is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

  in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

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  a Christian

  VM44,

  I'll PM you.
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  96

  Babylonian Business Records

  by VM44 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i have read that thousands of babylonian business records exist on clay tablets, and that these alone provide proof that the year 607bce is not what the watchtower claims it is.. since business is conducted on a day to day basis, these records should provide a continuous record of each babylonian kings reign.

  is there a summary of the babylonian business records?

  in particular, a timeline showing the number of business tables in existence corresponding to various kings and dates within a king/s reign?.

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  a Christian

  Scholar, Maybe you can help me on this. I hope you can. It's been a while since I have studied this subject matter. And I don't have a volume of Insight On The Scriptures available to me right now to look this up. We all understand that Babylon fell in 539 BC. All non-JW historians tell us that Jerusalem fell about 48 years earlier. However, JWs believe this took place not 48 years earlier, but 68 years earlier. To account for these extra 20 years, I believe JWs say that the Babylonian kings who ruled between the time of Jerusalem's fall to Babylon and Babylon's fall to Cyrus actually ruled about 20 years longer than Babylon's historical records are commonly understood to say that they did. To the reign of what king or kings do JWs now assign these extra 20 years? Wherever you assign these extra 20 years, why have no Babylonian business documents been found dated to any of them? Or have they? After all, haven't many such documents been found dated to every year of every known Babylonian king's reign during this time period, as the years of their reigns are now commonly understood? Thanks for your help.
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  85

  DNA - belief destuction

  by donkey in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the single largest reason to decimate my belief in jw?s and all biblical faith occurred when i discovered some facts about our cells.

  specifically a part of the cell called mitochondria.

  mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because their primary purpose is to manufacture adenosine triphosphate (atp), which is used as a source of energy that the cell uses.. as humans one inherits one?s mitochondria only from one's mother, this finding implies that all living humans have a female line of descent from a woman whom researchers have dubbed mitochondrial eve.

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  a Christian

  Nice Guy,

  You asked: How'd you like my revamped Genesis?

  Actually I liked it very much. The truth is I have often wished that Genesis and many other parts of the Bible had been written differently. If only Genesis had been written more like you wrote it maybe more scientific types would accept Christ as their Lord, or so I have thought. If only other parts of the Bible had been written more clearly, then the cults would not be able to mislead and enslave so many people, or so I have thought.

  But I believe now my thinking was in error. As I believe yours was in error when you wrote, "If the Bible were truly God's word, I would expect it to be written like that."

  For I am convinced beyond all doubt that the writing of the Bible was inspired by God. That being the case, if I ever now find myself thinking in such a way I remember the words of Isaiah 45:9. There we are told, "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker. An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Should the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?' "

  I now realize that God did not intend or desire for all of the Bible to be understood by all its readers, or for its contents to convince all skeptics that it is the Word of God. For, as I said earlier, it is not the Bible but God Himself who draws people to Christ and gives them everything they need to put their faith in Him.
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  85

  DNA - belief destuction

  by donkey in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the single largest reason to decimate my belief in jw?s and all biblical faith occurred when i discovered some facts about our cells.

  specifically a part of the cell called mitochondria.

  mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because their primary purpose is to manufacture adenosine triphosphate (atp), which is used as a source of energy that the cell uses.. as humans one inherits one?s mitochondria only from one's mother, this finding implies that all living humans have a female line of descent from a woman whom researchers have dubbed mitochondrial eve.

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  a Christian

  SNG,

  You wrote: I tried to be a Christian in the most sincere way possible, I prayed to God regularly, and I read the Bible diligently, but it was this book itself that forced me to stop believing it was anything else that a bunch of hogwash, to put it so bluntly.

  A dozen years after having left the JWs I could have written those exact same words.
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  85

  DNA - belief destuction

  by donkey in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the single largest reason to decimate my belief in jw?s and all biblical faith occurred when i discovered some facts about our cells.

  specifically a part of the cell called mitochondria.

  mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because their primary purpose is to manufacture adenosine triphosphate (atp), which is used as a source of energy that the cell uses.. as humans one inherits one?s mitochondria only from one's mother, this finding implies that all living humans have a female line of descent from a woman whom researchers have dubbed mitochondrial eve.

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  a Christian

  Nice Guy, You wrote: Secondly, you openly say that the entire Bible is written the way Jesus spoke: in parable. If that's the case, why do you arbitrarily choose to take some sections of it literally? Jesus did not always speak in parables. But He often did so. And the Bible tells us that when He did so, He did so in order to convey information to His friends and to hide information from His enemies. (Matt. 13:10-15) So my point was that the entire Bible was most likely written in a similar way, not all in parables, but in a way that was not meant to be entirely understandable to everyone. You wrote: Me thinks the only reason you choose to take the creation account literally ... I do not take the creation account literally, not Genesis chapter one anyway. You wrote: you don't want to accept the facts of evolution. You must have me mixed up with someone else here. I accept all the facts of evolution. I believe God used evolution as His means of creation. I believe all life on earth evolved from a common microscopic ancestor which first appeared on earth some 3.8 billion years ago. Earlier in this thread I wrote: Christians have always understood that God made Adam much more than an animal. We have long understood that God "created" Adam by giving him an eternal spirit which at the time of his death would not "go down into the earth" like "the spirit of an animal" but would "rise upward" and "return to God who gave it." (Eccl. 3:21; 12:7) Having an eternal spirit given to us by God, a spirit which will survive our death and then return to God, is what makes us human. It is what made Adam human. It is also what made men before Adam human. When God created the human race, before His creation of Adam and Eve, I believe He did so by then giving highly evolved primates eternal spirits, spirits which at the time of their deaths would not "go down into the earth" like "the spirits of animals" bit would "rise upward" and "return to God who gave them." I believe this was the creative act referred to in Gen. 1:27. It is understandable that you did not read what I wrote earlier. Those words were part of a post that was addressed to Derek. And they were buried in the middle of a long post.
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  85

  DNA - belief destuction

  by donkey in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the single largest reason to decimate my belief in jw?s and all biblical faith occurred when i discovered some facts about our cells.

  specifically a part of the cell called mitochondria.

  mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because their primary purpose is to manufacture adenosine triphosphate (atp), which is used as a source of energy that the cell uses.. as humans one inherits one?s mitochondria only from one's mother, this finding implies that all living humans have a female line of descent from a woman whom researchers have dubbed mitochondrial eve.

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  a Christian

  City Fan, You wrote: I think people living 3 millennia ago would have understood a sentence such as "and Elohim made the Moon to circle around the Earth, and the Earth to circle around the Sun". ... Someone on this board once re-wrote Genesis 1 as it should have been if truly inspired ... SNG, You wrote: It is possible to write clearly and accurately, such that people in different lands, in different cultures, in different times can still understand what you are talking about. ... If the Bible were truly God's word, I would expect it to be written like that. ... Why can't you just read the book and have it make sense? If this book were really the work of an intelligent, benevolent Creator-person, s/he should have been able to write simply, clearly, and accurately.

  You both appear to be laboring under the same two misconceptions.

  Your first misconception: Christians believe that God intended and desired for the contents of the Bible to be easily and clearly understood by all of its readers.

  Christians do not believe this. Christians believe that Jesus Christ created our universe and all that is in it. As Colossians 1:16 tells us, "For by him [Jesus Christ] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (Col. 1:16) We also believe Jesus Christ was the great "I AM" of the Old Testament. (John 8:58; Ex. 3:14) Because we believe these things we believe that Jesus Christ Himself inspired the writing of both the Old and New Testaments. Because we believe that He did, we understand that the entire Bible was written in the same way that Jesus Christ spoke while on earth. For a person writes like he speaks. How did Jesus Christ speak? Jesus Christ spoke in parables, stories which were designed not to be easily and clearly understood by all, but were designed to impart accurate knowledge only to Christ's disciples, and to withhold knowledge from people whose hearts were not inclined toward God.

  In confirmation of this fact, Matthew 13:10-15 tells us, "The disciples came and said to Him, 'Why do You speak to them in parables?' Jesus answered them, 'To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, you will keep on hearing , but will not understand; you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; for the heart of this people has become dull.' "

  So, with these things in mind, we can see that the Bible itself indicates that God did not intend or desire for the contents of the Bible to be easily and clearly understood by all of its readers.

  Your second misconception: Christians believe that God inspired the Bible to be written in a way that would be able to convince all skeptics that it is the Word of God.

  Christians do not believe this. If the Bible contained scientific information not available to ancient people or was written in such a way that made it clearly obvious to all people that it must be the inspired Word of God, then we would all be forced to acknowledge God's existence and His inspiration of the Bible right now. And that would defeat God's own stated purpose. For the Bible tells us God has chosen to save that time for Judgment Day. (Romans 14:9-12)

  The fact of the matter is, Christians believe it is not the Bible, but God Himself by means of His Holy Spirit, who draws people to Christ, convicts them of sin, and provides them with all the evidence they need to put their faith in Him. (John 16:8; 1 Cor. 3:6,7; 12:3; 2 Cor. 4:13; Eph. 2:8)
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  85

  DNA - belief destuction

  by donkey in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the single largest reason to decimate my belief in jw?s and all biblical faith occurred when i discovered some facts about our cells.

  specifically a part of the cell called mitochondria.

  mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because their primary purpose is to manufacture adenosine triphosphate (atp), which is used as a source of energy that the cell uses.. as humans one inherits one?s mitochondria only from one's mother, this finding implies that all living humans have a female line of descent from a woman whom researchers have dubbed mitochondrial eve.

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  a Christian

  Nice Guy,

  You wrote: the various "theories" you mention are not theories; they are hypotheses.

  I beg to differ. According to the book, The History Of Earth - An Illustrated Chronicle of an Evolving Planet, its author Dr. William K. Hartman "is internationally known for pioneering the modern theory on how Earth's moon formed. ... In addition to his doctorate in astronomy, he holds an M.S. in geology." In his book's chapter 5, entitled "Where did the moon come from?" he discusses all four "theories" of the moon's origin at great length. Throughout this chapter he continually refers to these theories as "theories" including his own most favored "theory," which is the one most planetary scientists now adhere to.

  I'll accept the word of Dr. Hartman as to whether or not it is proper for us to refer to his theory as a "theory."

  You wrote: The age of the earth and its various periods can be established in many, many ways: radiometric dating, ice core sampling, strata reading, wear patterns on mountains, etc, and they are all consistent.

  I am aware of that fact and have not disputed it.

  You wrote: to suggest that science goes back and forth wildly would be grossly misleading.

  I have not suggested such a thing. I have only said that Bible writers were wise not to provide too many specific details about exactly how and when creation took place. For scientists' acceptance of some such "details" is subject to change even today. I was simply using their very recent change in opinion on the probable origin of the moon as an example of that fact.
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  85

  DNA - belief destuction

  by donkey in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the single largest reason to decimate my belief in jw?s and all biblical faith occurred when i discovered some facts about our cells.

  specifically a part of the cell called mitochondria.

  mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because their primary purpose is to manufacture adenosine triphosphate (atp), which is used as a source of energy that the cell uses.. as humans one inherits one?s mitochondria only from one's mother, this finding implies that all living humans have a female line of descent from a woman whom researchers have dubbed mitochondrial eve.

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  a Christian

  Donkey,

  You asked: How can i seek that which I don't know exists? What EVIDENCE does he give?

  I developed doubts about the organization in my late teens. I left JWs in my early 20s. Shortly thereafter I became an agnostic and a skeptic of any religious claims. I remained skeptical of anything religious for about 15 years. Then in 1992 I came across what I considerd to be strong evidence that the Bible must be God's Word and that Jesus Christ must have created the uiniverse. I then became a Christian. I am now compiling this evidence into book form, evidence which I believe will one day help many open minded agnostiocs to become Christians. I have discussed this evidence on this forum before. You can find my discussions of it by doing a search of my post history.
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  85

  DNA - belief destuction

  by donkey in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the single largest reason to decimate my belief in jw?s and all biblical faith occurred when i discovered some facts about our cells.

  specifically a part of the cell called mitochondria.

  mitochondria are sometimes described as "cellular power plants" because their primary purpose is to manufacture adenosine triphosphate (atp), which is used as a source of energy that the cell uses.. as humans one inherits one?s mitochondria only from one's mother, this finding implies that all living humans have a female line of descent from a woman whom researchers have dubbed mitochondrial eve.

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  a Christian

  Derek, I wrote: If the writer of Genesis had written his account of creation to match our 21st century understandings of when and how the heavens and the earth came into being, if in the next 500 years some of our 21st century understandings are replaced with "new improved" understandings, what would 26th century readers of Genesis think of its contents? You responded: This is interesting. It seems to show you have a typically religious view of science, as something that changes constantly and unpredictably. The earth has been around for 4.5 billion years (give or take) there was no global flood 4000 years ago. All life on earth is descended from a common ancestor. These are facts. Barring supernatural revelation, these facts will not change. I agree with you for the most part. But even if the Bible had said the earth was created by God 5 billion years ago some critics would now say that the Bible cannot be inspired by God because it is not sufficiently accurate. However, isn't it possible that today's scientific estimate for the age of the earth, "4.5 billion years," will be adjusted closer to 5 billion years in five hundred years time? The point I was making was that the origins of our universe are not so clearly defined as some would lead us to believe. For instance, scientists are still not unanimous in their opinion as to how exactly our moon came into being. Various theories have been proposed. The earth and moon formed side by side at the same time. The moon was thrown off from the earth early on as a result of earth's then high speed spin. The moon was acquired by earth's strong gravitational pull. After the earth formed, another very large body struck the earth. The resulting debris from that impact spewed out into space, gathered together, and solidified into our moon. This last theory is presently the most popular but has many detractors. One of the first three theories, or another altogether, could become the most popular in future years. That being the case, I believe it is best that Bible writers did not tell us exactly how God created the moon. What if they had explained the origin of the moon according to the presently most popular theory? This theory was thought to be ridiculous by most scientists only a few years ago and it is still rejected by many scientists today, since it closely resembles the crackpot writings of Velikovsky. So whatever the Bible had to say in this regard, in any greater detail than it now gives, would have been harshly criticized by most 20th century scientists, and even now by many 21st century scientists. I wrote: For instance, Genesis uses the Hebrew word for "create," Bara, only in describing God's bringing into existence the heavens and earth, life in the sea and mankind. All other kinds of life, vegetation and animals, Genesis tells us, were not directly "created" by God but were "produced" by "the land." (Gen. 1:11,12, 24) And, as I mentioned earlier, Hebrew lexicons tell us that "Bara," Hebrew for "create," refers to "the initiation" of something, while the Hebrew words translated as "produced" refer to "the fashioning of," or "the changing shape of," preexisting materials.

  You asked: Would it have been grammatically correct to use "bara" when referring to making something from dust? ... Was the word used the only one that could be used even if it was intended to mean that God made all living things directly? I will not comment on what may or may not have been "grammatically correct" in the ancient Hebrew language. For I am not an expert in biblical Hebrew. I only know what Hebrew lexicons tell us pertaining to the meanings of words. They say that the verb "bara emphasizes the initiation of an object," while the other Hebrew word used in reference to God's activity in the Genesis creation account, "yasar," "emphasize the shaping of an object." I wrote: "The events in Eden demonstrated that all human beings are capable of sinning, and are thus all less righteous than God (God can't sin). You responded: If we are capable of something that God is incapable of, surely we are superior to him. So, according to your logic, since we know Charles Manson was capable of mass murder, if I say that I am not capable of mass murder I am making Charles Manson superior to me. Derek, at this point I think I will let you go your own way on all of this. For I think that anyone who can make a ridiculous statement like the one you just made either just wants to argue or lacks the common sense necessary to hold a productive conversation.
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  179

  I found a big ol' fat lie again in there!

  by gumby in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  some big fat liar made sumthin up again!

  looky here what i went and found in the bible!

  remember that little dove that desended down on jesus right after he was baptised by john?

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  a Christian

  Gumby,

  You asked: why was it again John had his diciples inquire to find out if Jesus was the real deal or not......after god confirmed WHO Jesus was when John baptised him? Did we cover that one yet?

  Earlier I wrote: John most likely sent his disciples to Christ with this question, not so much for his own satisfaction as for theirs. John's disciples may have been reluctant to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah, because he eclipsed John. Though John himself was glad to turn over his disciples to Christ, they may have been reluctant to leave him. John probably saw his death approaching, and therefore wanted his disciples to become better acquainted with Christ, under whose guardianship he knew he would leave them